Matt Dumouchelle on Why Winning Too Early Can Hurt Development

Rhett Parker: Hi, and welcome to another episode of Surviving U Sports. And today we have Matt Dumouchelle And I got the name right because I just said it about, yes, I got it about five times. ⁓ Is surviving just like the rest of us? Sport parent has been all over the radio and is an advocate U Sports in his own way. Welcome to the show, Matt. Matt Dumouchelle: Seamless. Alright, thanks so much for having me. Great job with the last name. Off to a fantastic start. We're doing great here. Rhett Parker: And being from radio, I know because obviously play college minor league baseball. If they can't, they have, they're like before the game, they're coming around like, ⁓ man, God, hey, how do you say, know, Lewandinski, like, because you want to get it right. You want to get, you want to get it right. So that's. ⁓ Matt Dumouchelle: ⁓ yeah. That's all your credibility there right there. Day one in radio school, we were always told if you come across a bad last name as an example, just say it once and keep going. Because if you go back and try to correct it, that's going to make it even worse. But ultimately, that's the end of the day. You show up. I was fortunate after some of my radio career, I got to do some color commentary and play by play and stuff in the Ontario Hockey League. And you'd show up, you'd pull up the roster before the game just to Rhett Parker: Right Matt Dumouchelle: a little bit of research and stuff and you would hope number 26 who may have been from the Czech Republic that had 17 letters in his last name and three of them were vowels you would pray that he was a scratch so you'd only have to say it once and just keep going and I wouldn't have to reference it again. Rhett Parker: Yeah. That's awesome. I can imagine. just you just like yeah, the European Eastern European names God if you're if you're if you're on broadcast like oh no man God is it am I gonna get this one right? That's awesome Matt Dumouchelle: Yeah. Yeah, it was was crazy and there was always the little ones. ⁓ When I was working with the Leamington Flyers in the Ontario Junior Hockey League, like I did some play by play with them, but I was the assistant GM so we had a few more things to take care of during the games and stuff. But we had two sets of brothers at one point in the team. So it's not just McPherson to McPherson. It's the first name, last name, first name, last name ⁓ and is not a slow sport. So you're trying to jam in these names ⁓ as quickly as Rhett Parker: Yeah. ⁓ man. No. Matt Dumouchelle: can and you end up just calling them by their first name like you're like your buddies with them because it's a lot easier to get it reeled in. Rhett Parker: You have to. Well, and it's funny I go right into that I can barely skate I mean it's really pathetic especially I was telling you right before we got on I played all over BC. I played in Saskatoon I played in Quebec City one of my best friends lives in Guelph, Ontario like I have been all over the country and Man, I never played hockey. I don't know if I've ever even maybe I hit a puck once I Love going to hockey matches Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rhett Parker: It's because man, is just, marvel at how fast they are. And, I've gotten the kids to go to a couple of my wife and I anniversary this past year went to the Canucks's Hughes's last game. ⁓ And so we're like, we're, we're in it. ⁓ And, and I the crazy part, we were used to live in Omaha and we went to Omaha, Omaha, who is one of the better college hockey teams, which wits matches. Matt Dumouchelle: Okay. Yes, yeah. Rhett Parker: and I loved your take on this from a youth perspective all the way up, they were in quicksand compared to the NHL guys. I mean, they are so much slower. And I was like, wow, the difference is massive in terms of how quickly they get up and down the ice. Tell me about youth hockey. Tell me about junior hockey, man, because I am so interested in hearing about it. Matt Dumouchelle: Hmm. It's... It's wild, isn't it? Yeah, well, just on that topic alone, you're 100%. Like again, I worked with the Leamington Flyers as assistant GM. That was junior A hockey. And we had kids, you we had nine kids in our program in six years, commit to D1 schools. We had a kid get drafted right into the NHL from our program. So like we're an upper echelon franchise in that league and get a lot of good players that come through. And the separators at that age, and this is, ⁓ 16 20, ⁓ are noticeable for sure. But it is that next, next step that's really wild. Like where I am in Windsor, Ontario, like we're blessed to be around everything. I mean, Detroit is 15, 20 minutes away depending on the mood of the border guard. So, we get to go over to Red Wings games, Tigers games, ⁓ whenever want. University of Michigan's 45 minutes away. So you can go see, U of ⁓ football or hockey at Yost or something like that. ⁓ And that's it. I'll take my little guy. He's eight years old. We'll go to a couple of Red games a year. And he likes to go down right to the glass during warm up and watch them buzz around and stuff. And they're putting in, they're getting their bodies loose. This isn't full speed stuff. But even then you can tell this is not normal speed. Everything is 100%. And I think there was a big wake up for a lot of people that maybe aren't hockey fans in general. the Olympics who turned into the Olympic Games, saw that gold medal game specifically, Canada, the US. Like if you watch that match and this wasn't something that piqued your interest at least, we'll never get you on board with hockey because that's about as good as it gets and you're right, it feels 10 times faster when you're there than it is when you're watching it in person. Rhett Parker: Ever. It and it and it is and and there's obviously major leagues ⁓ down college baseball that the gap is huge, but ⁓ I think ⁓ the sport speed ⁓ There's still guys throw 98 miles an hour in college. There's still guys that throw 98 MLB man, Matt Dumouchelle: Mhm. Yeah. Rhett Parker: guys would just get blown out of the water by the NHL or even the, we used to have the Tacoma Rockets where I was from. Even the, ⁓ I'm not they're skilled, with the puck or anything. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, man, they are just, they fly and the gap is just ⁓ the Grand Canyon. I it just, ⁓ it really was like, my gosh. Matt Dumouchelle: Okay, yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It is really fast and you see that as like hockey is the only sport out there where you're doing two things at once all the time like your feet are always moving and they're on a little blade of metal ⁓ on frozen pond compared to just running on a field running on a court running on a wherever you might be ⁓ so there's always two different elements but I even see that when we turn it to youth sports with with my little guy he played house league this past year ⁓ he's eight years old he'll be nine at the end of may the the kids that are considered excellent or the ones that raise eyebrows are just the faster ones. know, a lot of youth hockey turns into just being a breakaway contest because each team normally has one or two kids that maybe have better hands or are better skaters at that age. And when you talk about separators, like being able to skate at eight years old compared to kids that maybe can't or are learning and stuff, like you want to talk about putting yourself in front of the front of the pack if you can skate at that age, it's it's completely different game The hard part of that and again tying it into youth sports and keeping everybody focused and calm when they're watching these things from a parent perspective, coaching perspective, whatever it is, is again we have to take what we're seeing into perspective. An eight-year-old who's a really good skater is not guaranteeing anything for that kid when he's 18 or 26 or whatever the case may be. Everybody will always catch up at some point and when we look at difference makers from a junior hockey level or different makers from an NHL level. the difference between an elite player and a ⁓ middle-of-the-road really not that much, ⁓ but the, guess it's the intricacies, right? Or it's ⁓ the that those players put themselves in to try to elevate their game that ⁓ separate when we're talking about that level. Rhett Parker: youth hockey, how much of a role is an, and it's an obvious, it's a role, but it's different in every sport. Puberty is it, is it because man, I'd say in baseball, the gap is just because you can, you can not have any fundamentals in baseball. It's all strength and you're going to dominate. it the same way in hockey? I, I, cause if you're slow and you're big, does that, so tell me, I, I mean, it's just Matt Dumouchelle: you Hmm. for sure. Mm-hmm It lasts for a little bit. The biggest difference maker with hockey, specifically when you're getting to particular age, like in Ontario where we are, we introduce body checking at 13. So anytime before that, you're not really playing hockey. know, like you, it's the Mike Tyson quote, right? Like everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Like you could go up the boards and some guy can't throw you into the wall. It's a very different type of game you're playing until you're trying to go Rhett Parker: No clue here. Matt Dumouchelle: up the boards and that guy now can put his entire body into you and try to knock you on your butt right so that the size of course is always plays a little bit different people like looking at ⁓ at or or for sizing somebody that ⁓ projects to be decent size 6 2 6 4 whatever that looks like can certainly be an advantage ⁓ and and teams general are willing to hold on to those kind of players a little bit longer than others ⁓ just because of size but yeah like what what separates the kids more or less than than age and body size at that point is really when body checking is starting to get introduced Rhett Parker: Which my wife, being a physician, sports med, I kind of actually love hearing that. I mean, a nine-year-old doesn't need to get checked into the boards. And that's why some of the tackle football stuff too, it's like, they don't even know to properly do anything yet. Matt Dumouchelle: Hmm Yeah. No, and I think that's part of why ⁓ Canada or Hockey Canada or whoever looks at it that way is it's not just now we can throw our bodies around because we're better controlled on the ice. It's doing it safely, doing it properly. As much as that year before, at the end of the year, lot of coaches spend time on preparing them for body checking and it's not throwing the check, it's taking the check. How can you be against the boards, know somebody's and still make a play but safely put yourself in a position that you're not gonna get blindsided and head first into the boards. You're positioning against the wall as proper that somebody comes and hits you. They're gonna knock you in but they're not throwing your body into the glass. So as much as, I think that age plays a lot into body type and growth and all of that too, but ultimately that's pretty good age for kids to start understanding what. impact can look like from a delivery and receiving perception. So they do a lot of good work around that and preparing kids for that type of hockey because that more than anything changes the game that you're playing. Rhett Parker: Yeah, well that makes me really happy because we're putting development safety over winning because there's plenty of people that would take advantage of that and just go get the biggest kids at 11 to go try and win. So you help contribute to a hockey site. ⁓ I want to hear a little bit about that. And in that, I kind of want to hear, because it sounds like we're doing some things right in hockey, which I love to hear. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. For sure. Hmm. Rhett Parker: What are we getting wrong? know, me both sides. Matt Dumouchelle: Hmm sure Sure. So from the coaches site dot com is the site that I contribute and write for. So I've been writing now with them for three years and my feature on that show is or on that site is called Hockey Factories. So what I've done so far is worked with 15 different organizations from across the world. We've done a couple in Sweden, Finland, Germany, Latvia, Switzerland, North America, of course, and it's twofold. Really, what we're trying to do are the genesis of it was what are these clubs doing that separate them not just in their city but in their country, know, in their continent and globally, know, a Frolanda in Sweden is like the Yankees of hockey. that's the king. Like what are they doing that separates them from all of these other clubs around the world? And even more valuable, what are they doing that I can do with my club, the board that I sit on in in Windsor Ontario right? Big city, small city, triple-a center, single-a center. Like what what are we able to learn from these clubs that we can do at home without cost, without extreme situations right? ⁓ What doing wrong, ⁓ I to burst your bubble, we're doing quite a few things wrong ⁓ in ⁓ in general and and I think some of the work that I do and and getting able to take Rhett Parker: We all are. Every sport is, trust me. Matt Dumouchelle: what I've learned and use that to help organizations build stronger programs, stronger systems that don't rely on, like you said, taking the best 11 year olds and going to win a banner. How are we communicating and creating these environments ultimately at the end of the day to create the best youth sports experience for every kid that's involved in your program? We are always I say this as we Canada in general in the United States to an extent as well ⁓ Just not a ton of experience to speak on it But in Canada, we are always trying to find the next great hockey player and speed them up as quick as we can there's the the long-term development structure ⁓ of of organization or what that looks like from a u8 to a u18 ⁓ is not to say non-existent, ⁓ but it's Most organizations that I've run into run that as eight or nine different separate teams as opposed to one organization. So the ones that are doing it right will teach at U8. They'll explain to their coaches that are coaching at that age group. Here's our mandate for you. Here's your guardrails. This year we want to focus on skating. So at the end of the year, how you get them there is up to you. You're the coach. You you can practice plan. You can do all those things but at the end of the year you're going to be evaluated on How strong are these kids skating forwards? How strong are these kids skating backwards? And are all of these kids signing up to play hockey here again next year? ⁓ That is your, there's your three mandates for that year. Because at U8, U9, U10, keep going, none of this matters. Like truly, none of this matters in the sense that nobody's going on elite prospects to find out what your stats were when you were 11 years old, if you're about to get drafted when you're 16. Rhett Parker: Bingo. Matt Dumouchelle: The other part of that that organizations fail to do in supporting their coaches for that is to give them a vision of what this Organization looks like, as a u9 coach You should know what's being taught at u8 and you should know what's being taught at u10 so that you can ⁓ add ⁓ What building in ⁓ creating complete player ⁓ when say, know, if you're fast at ⁓ u9 Which is my little guy's league like you're separator now that the first thing we want to do here is to call that kid elite or or here's another program here's a travel program now you want to take travel instead of house league we want you in a travel program because you're you're the best nine-year-old out there In Europe, they take a much slower development pathway. They have more of a runway to do it, but what they will work on is, Latvia is an example, HS RECA was a program that I worked on. The first cuts that they make to their teams is at 14 years old. Other than that, everybody plays for as long as possible because they don't have another player coming. Canada and the US and some of these other bigger countries have the benefit of if I cut a kid at U10, I can find another kid by walking outside and looking down the street and I can find a hockey player. They're never running out of kids that are playing hockey. In a country like Latvia or a country like Germany where hockey might be the fifth or sixth most popular Rhett Parker: Good. Good. Matt Dumouchelle: You have no choice. You have to develop everybody. because you don't know if that 10 year old who's not great on his feet is gonna grow into a 15 year old that can play, that has an opportunity to play on a first team or something like that, right? So one of the first things that I talk about when I work with different organizations and such is to build out what that model looks like so that your parents understand, your coaches understand what needs to be delivered, you have evaluation points to see is this working, is this not working. and then you're giving these kids again everybody's getting the best experience they possibly can as opposed to separating a group of elite kids where 90 % of the kids in your program are house league kids but you put a lot of a lot of extra effort coaching extra ice all of that into the 10 % of kids that Rhett Parker: Correct. Matt Dumouchelle: the numbers, I'm sure, just like anybody else. None of these kids are gonna be NHL players ⁓ mathematically. .1%, right? So what are we delivering to everybody as opposed to trying to segregate ⁓ and move on to elite as fast as they can? Rhett Parker: Yeah. Yes. Right. And I think there's a balance, right? There's some 12 year olds that, Hey man, ⁓ if want to go ⁓ have different challenge, go have a different challenge. Like ⁓ I'm good with it. If you want to play in a house league or little league for baseball here, do it. Like, ⁓ and the way, like it's funny, I'm going to go back to one thing you said. We're trying to find the next. Matt Dumouchelle: you Mm-hmm. Rhett Parker: Sydney Crosby. Okay, let me tell you something about Sydney Crosby. ⁓ He could play for me. I know nothing about hockey. Maybe he's not as good as he is now. He's still going to be an NHL player guys. I mean, I just I hate to tell you that he can play for me. And I'd be like, we have to we have to switch line shift. Like I wouldn't even know what the hell is going on. But that kid's so good. It's not gonna matter. Matt Dumouchelle: Mhm. Yeah Hmm Yeah. for sure. Rhett Parker: And by the way, I could take a baseball guy who is 15 and is loose and lanky and effortless and throws 90 miles an hour and he's going to throw mid to upper 90s. He can go play for you. He's going to be fine. He's going to be fine. So I do think that there's times where you do start to separate the elite from the house league, but let's make sure we're doing it at the right times. Matt Dumouchelle: Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. Mm-hmm. Right. Rhett Parker: You just said it at nine guys. I mean, if you're a great player, dude, that's awesome. And you, and you're like dominant and that's so cool. And I'm going to champion that because I think it's great, but I'm also not going to put any future stock into it. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Right. And that's where we can get lost real quick as parents, of course, all parents, we genuinely want what's best for our kids. Where sports plays into this has changed dramatically in comparison to anything else. I'm not going to, my kid brings home a 20 out of 20 on his math test. I'm not trying to fast forward him to become a scientist, right? I'm not trying to, my daughter shows a real interest in history. about to go get a degree somewhere. she's 11, right? It's funny getting the opportunity with with Leamington who I'd worked for, like we're allowed two 16 year olds on our roster and then the rest are 17 to 20. So in doing these conversations and presentations and things like that, like you could be the best 13 year old on the planet. I can't take you. So like you need to now just get the best coaching you can, give them the best experience, play a ton, get a ton of reps, love what you're doing, and then the time will come when you can make that next step. But we're not in a rush to try to do this where I think the idea of return on investment, and listen, I understand it as a parent more than anything else, Rhett Parker: Huh. Please. Yeah. Matt Dumouchelle: It's expensive to do this man like it is it is expensive to play hockey in Canada and we're adding on Travel and now we've got two or three out of town tournaments We're spending money at hotels and get there. They sure as heck aren't giving gas away these days So, I got to drive up the drive up the 401 three hours to spend a weekend there at my time and his time to play two or three games, know, because we're all chasing this idea of trying to get it to Rhett Parker: That's true. Matt Dumouchelle: like we're as elite as possible as soon as possible when to your point there's there's kids that get it and there's kids that don't need ⁓ Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: all the craziness around them, they're just going to be good. Right? the first one we did for hockey factories was Shattuck St. Mary's. Sidney Crosby went there, Jonathan Taves, Nathan McKinnon, you name it. They probably have some connection there. Their coach, Tom Ward, who's U18, he always says his number one job is to not screw it up. Because if that kid goes here, if he plays AAA, if he plays in the USHL, he's going to be an elite player. And you just Rhett Parker: Yeah? End. Matt Dumouchelle: see that right but for 99.9999 percent of the other kids how are we creating an experience for them but not only are they learning are they developing as a player but they're taking away what sports gives you at at my age at your age the ability to work as a team the ability to handle yourself win or lose, know, how to be focused, how to invest more time and energy into something. all of those things are things that helped me ⁓ at job today that I learned being around sports and nothing else can teach that. So we're very quick to want to be the ones that say, ⁓ we 25 people that get out of our program every year that get drafted or these kids moved on or this. Sure. But there's 500, 600 kids that are under your umbrella right now that just want to enjoy. Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: playing hockey or whatever sport it is. Rhett Parker: Absolutely. ⁓ that's ⁓ And I that, and I say this, I was a broken record, ⁓ experiences relationships are all we have. That's it. And if you're lucky enough and you get some money in your bank account and you're set for life, man, congratulations. Like good for you. ⁓ That's But that's not, it's experiences and relationships, becoming fans of the sport. ⁓ Matt Dumouchelle: Hmm Yeah. Rhett Parker: as part of your experience, but we get told these things as parents and it's supposed to be this way. And man, even if you're great and Windsor God, it's a big world out there. I mean, it's a may I mean, go play that kid from Latvia. Go play the kid from Germany. It's a massive world out there. And I think we lose that a little bit. ⁓ with some of the stuff going on and you brought up Matt Dumouchelle: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Rhett Parker: One more thing that I want to touch on because I want your opinion because you obviously do a lot of, counseling and mentoring in the youth sports department as well. You take Sidney Crosby, 13 years old. that one of the best things that you can do with that kid or even the kids that are a tier below that that are going to be really good that, might play minor league hockey or really high level college hockey. Go let them fail. Because no matter what. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rhett Parker: Sidney Crosby's failed plenty. Like, I mean, and sorry to bring this up, like, because my Canadian friends are like, we failed as a, yeah, we failed as a country. Like you're gonna fail, whether it's as an individual, as a team. And it's okay to let them fail. I have some kids that are pretty good at some sports. Man, I do not want them to be the best player on their teams. I want them to go fail. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know where this is going. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Rhett Parker: It doesn't mean to get destroyed, but like, man, like you have to fail to learn. And that's part of the experience. Are you going to quit when it's your job? If you fail, hell no, you're to have to go figure it out. Matt Dumouchelle: It's true. Yeah? Yeah, we're we all have bad days kids like that. That's just it. And I'd love to storm out and close my laptop sometimes at work and say, ⁓ I'm never coming back here again. But guess where I am at nine in the morning the next day, right? It's that's just not the way it works. ⁓ My son ⁓ is ⁓ I joke that he doesn't like his dad very much because he wants to be a goalie. ⁓ So he's a goalie. He had an opportunity last season to play a year up in a travel setting ⁓ as goalie, ⁓ never played full Rhett Parker: Right. Right. Matt Dumouchelle: time as a goalie. So he was seven years old playing U9 at the time and and they said listen we'd love to have him. He's good kid, know good energy, other kids love being around him. If he wants to play he's more than welcome. So I pulled him aside and said listen pal if you want to do this let me tell you something first and foremost as your father who loves you more than anybody. You are going to get lit up if you do this. Rhett Parker: He's eight. He's eight or seven. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. This is great. Yeah. Matt Dumouchelle: This is not going to go well. But if you can stick it out, you're gonna get more shots, you're gonna get... to travel around, you're gonna get to see what it's like, take the whole thing in. I speak about how important it is that we include House League and travel and all those things. My son's now done both. The first year I wanted him to play travel because I want him to see the lights. I want him to get excited about it. want him to, we're going in the car ride up on the trip. Like it's fun. There's a lot of excitement around that, right? And I tell him, buddy, like, you're gonna lose seven nothing. There's no question about it. We're gonna go to a tournament in Toronto ⁓ God bless you. You're gonna get pumped because these kids, some of these kids in Toronto have ⁓ Skating and shooting coaches and all that at eight nine years old It's it's crazy, but you're gonna learn so much if you just stick with it. It's gonna be worth it He played it out for the year. It went the way that we thought he went He got so much better from one year to the next he wants to play it again next year So we'll he'll be trying out for that next year, but a hundred percent I want him to ⁓ Rhett Parker: All right, joke. All ⁓ Matt Dumouchelle: Experiences I don't want him to go in blind as a parent I'm not gonna set him up and say ⁓ you're gonna dominate and then go in there the first five shots go in and he's looking at me like it was what the hell you're talking about but I want him to know what a difficult situation looks like and try to work backwards through that in his head because at eight years old at 18 at 28 That's a that's an incredibly valuable tool to have as a person not just an athlete Yeah Rhett Parker: I We're on the same page got an eight-year-old plays 10u baseball and he plays little league so house little league same thing and And and I would imagine your son physically is able to do it because it's not just skill like you have to be physical enough to play ⁓ Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm For sure, yeah, we're never gonna put the kid in a position where he's gonna get hurt ⁓ with kids launching pucks or fastballs or whatever it is, Adam, for sure. Rhett Parker: Correct. Yeah, and so he started this year and he's, they got 12 or 13 kids and he hits ninth, I'll say. And I'm like, was perfect. But he's gotten like, he's like, they've only played in a couple of tournaments. He's like six for 10, 12, five for nine, something like that. So having a ton of success. And he's like, when am I gonna move up in the lineup? I'm like, I'm like. Matt Dumouchelle: Yep. Okay. Yep. BLEH Rhett Parker: And I told the coach, because I actually, this is the only one I don't coach right now, because he's got a great, great guy who's, it's just a perfect situation because I can't be everywhere. But I go, do not move him up too much. Because if he's hitting third or fourth, those guys are seeing different pitches. Like he's going to get blown up. And in baseball, you cannot get blown up too much because man, you just fail, fail, fail. You're going to be in trouble. So. Matt Dumouchelle: Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Rhett Parker: I'm like, buddy, you're doing perfect. And honestly, like we need to work on your defense because you're not playing a lot in the field because you're not catching the balls when, when, when, when they're, ⁓ hitting to the outfit, which is, which is hard to do anyways, but like, let's work on this. ⁓ Like doing great hitting cause you've worked at it. So ⁓ I ⁓ that. And he's still going to be nine, you eligible ⁓ next Matt Dumouchelle: Mmm. Great. Mhm. Rhett Parker: not 10U, which he's playing right now, 9U. And I'm like, why would I put him on a 9U team? Like he's 85 pounds today. And I'm not trying to put our, we're not trying to put our kids on a pedestal, but what we're saying is that more important than being a great 9U player is putting them in a situation where they have enough success to love the sport and want to get better and enough failure to go, man, A is this for me, B like, like Matt Dumouchelle: Yeah. Sure. Mm-hmm. Rhett Parker: What do I need to do to get better? Have that desire to be good and parents. It's good to do that with the right kid. There's other kids. So tell me about your other kids. I can't do that with all my kids for every sport. It wouldn't work. They'd get smoked and they wouldn't want to play. So you coach soccer. Tell me about, let's move to another kid just like I do. Tell me about that. Matt Dumouchelle: Yes. Right. Yep. No, for sure. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, soccer for me is something that I don't. know the rules. I don't play. I know that there's ⁓ seven seven and the net's way too big. ⁓ But my experience with soccer. But I love being around by kids and I love ⁓ coaching and getting be kind of part of that experience. ⁓ And you do sure. ⁓ ⁓ they do great job ⁓ putting out practice plans and So I've got a general idea of what ⁓ I'm doing and where players going to play and things like that. ⁓ But for sure, ⁓ I just this past Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: a ⁓ girl who was excellent, like she was the best player in our age group, there's no doubt about it. So, kind of to your point, what did we do, how do you as a coach, Elevate the players that are at the bottom of the skill level but not bore the kid that's at the top, right? Where do you find that in the middle? She's she was 10 at the time. It's too young in my opinion to start building like Why don't you coach some of the other kids and as a leader type thing as a player, know, let her play Let her have fun. She'll she'll get that time when when that time comes So, how do you keep her engaged but also not challenging? the other kids too much Exactly like you said, you do a great job at ball handling. Next game, move the ball. let's just try this, because the team can't depend on you to score every single goal. That's not fair to anybody, yourself included. ⁓ But if, ⁓ the team obviously knows, okay, we're gonna guard her, we're gonna play ⁓ tough on her, it is. ⁓ What if in game, all you did was pass? Just move the ball. I talked to your mom and dad before the game so that she understands, ⁓ hey, ⁓ This is why she's doing this. We're just getting her to test something out, develop a different skill, ⁓ and wasn't great. ⁓ And we do it again and we do it again. Now through osmosis, other kids are seeing the best player on the team is moving the ball. I got three girls around me. Maybe I should try to move the ball. They're getting more touches. She's working on something that's challenging her. ⁓ And the end of the game, or lose, everybody takes something away from that, right? ⁓ So like we said, when we're talking about creating just great experiences for all the kids that are involved on your team, everybody ultimately pays the same amount for registration. At their age, again, we're not talking about the next superstar that's not gonna be shooting up to scales. We just wanna create an environment where they feel safe to make mistakes, they're encouraged to make mistakes, they're having fun, and they wanna come back for the next game and the next practice. Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: of our responsibility as coaches and parents is is only that where parents try to jump into coaching, coaches try to jump into parenting, nobody's talking to each other and the kids left in the middle saying well my parent says my coach doesn't know what I'm talking about, my coach says that I need to start working on this and that. I don't know what I should be doing here because I'm gonna hear it in the car about why I didn't shoot as many times as I should I got the best shot on the team. Rhett Parker: Hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: and the coach has said, let's just try moving the ball a little bit more. See if you can develop that skill as well. If we're not all on the same page, that's organization to coach to family, that's coach to player to parent. If we're not all understanding what we're trying to do, that's when problems creep in and that's when we all kind of default to what's best for our kid. And if we don't have a goal in mind for the year, the default always turns to winning. we're in sports now, we're competitive. We want to win and lose. It's on the scoreboard, it's everywhere. ⁓ So our coach says we're going to have a great year, ⁓ we're to work hard, we're going to ⁓ learn new skills, we're going to, okay, great. So my kid worked hard and my kid learned some skills. Why is my kid not playing as much as this other kid? Rhett Parker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: That's not fair. This coach doesn't know what he's talking about. Okay, well, we're working hard and we're doing this, but we're not winning. So we can't be having a good year if we're not winning. Well, is that a parrot problem? Is that a coach not explaining what this year is going to look like? Is it an organizational problem? As in, we don't have a philosophy. We just kind of gave that coach that team and let him do whatever he wanted with it. That's part of what I'm trying to work with organizations on is to not just define your problems, Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: maybe identify your problems beforehand, but hell everybody's got problems. There's no perfect organization, there's no perfect way of doing this. This isn't a here are the things you're doing wrong. This is a maybe we try it a different way and see if there's something that comes back good or bad and adjust accordingly. Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Well, it is one of the reasons why Europe is absolutely kicking our ass in all sports almost through the development piece because one, their best coaches coach the youth kids. Two, they don't play all the games all the time. Three, it's just like checking people into the boards, like they're not worried about winning so much at Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. . Right. Rhett Parker: this level and this level and this level. And that's why they're getting better than us. I mean, just, just let us, we have lost the plot in so many sports at so many age groups and it's not everybody, but just think about that as a parent, a coach, running an organization, what's, what is the plot for you? Okay. You need to make money. I'm all for it. Great. Now what? Okay. ⁓ Are trying to be an elite? And I think sometimes we just, Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Hmm you Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Rhett Parker: People try to straddle like, ⁓ we're wreck, but like we want to be a little above wreck. Okay, we're above wreck, but we kind of want to be elite. And it's like you've lost the plot. What are you? Dude, take what you are as a team, as a club, as a coach, know your personnel, know where you're playing and own that. Figure out what that is and own it because in Europe, I'll tell you right now, they own, ⁓ I only speak for soccer because my kids have done some things over in England. Matt Dumouchelle: Yeah. Mhm. Rhett Parker: They own their, they own the plot and they, whether it's right or wrong, they're ready and they, and they, here's the way it is parents boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Here's the curriculum. Here's this, here's this. And it was like, wow. ⁓ Okay. Great. Matt Dumouchelle: They get it. Yeah, it's impressive. Two things on that, know, hockey is no different for sure. One of the things that that kind of takes us off guard in Canada, again, we're extremely proud of our hockey teams and our hockey players and such. I had a coach in Sweden once tell me and this was one of the first hockey factories we did. It's something that's always stuck with me is that Canada puts 95 percent of their effort in five percent of their players. So they've got incredible players. Connor McDavid, know, Macklin Celebrani, Connor Bedard. keep naming them, but as a team, we've lost the last three straight years to Czechia and the World Juniors, which is an eighth of our population. Rhett Parker: Wild. Wild. Matt Dumouchelle: We're losing the Olympics. We've got teams that are, know, Latvia is beating us in the round robin games and stuff in the world juniors. Somebody's got to say, well, what's happening? They're building great teams in those countries because one thing we do in Ontario is we have, we do a poor job from hockey specific of explaining pathways. So the mindset that you end up with in Ontario is if you're not drafted into the Ontario hockey, in your draft year, it's probably over. You're not gonna make the next step. There's plenty of different avenues. But Jokered in Finland is one of the programs we focused on and that's one that's always sat with me. Some of the ways that they build their development model, I've tried to explain to friends of mine, coaches and things like that, and get laughed out of the ring. Like, what do you mean they don't focus on anything other than Rhett Parker: That's crazy. Matt Dumouchelle: playing offense with the puck when they're eight years old. When do they work on defense? So they work on defense at 11 or 12 years old. Well, what do you mean? How are we... The kids got to know how to play defense at nine. No, they don't. Right. They don't. Because when you talk to a European club, they're looking to build players for their first team, which most cases those kids, when they're first starting, that's 23, 22, 23. Rhett Parker: So they don't care about the wins. They don't care. They don't care. Matt Dumouchelle: years old. So they've got a much longer runway to do it. They can take their time and be deliberate with it. They've got the coaches, like you said, that are plugged into particular age groups because they're really good at teaching what they teach. And there is a pathway to it because ultimately they're not looking at a first team player because they know a number of those kids don't make their first team. But if that kid had a great experience playing youth hockey at Yoakaret and they have a son or daughter, I bet they're gonna want them to go to play hockey because you had such a great experience. Maybe they own a business and they want to buy season tickets or sponsor the club. Maybe they want to come back and coach sometime. They've created an environment around what they are as an organization as opposed to just chasing banners and draft picks and all of these things because end of the day, like you said, they get it. They know what we're trying to do here because 90 % of these kids that we're going to graduate from our program, we're putting back into our communities. So this isn't a hockey or a baseball or a soccer question. This is a society. Are you creating the type of people you want to invest back into your community as an adult who may own a business or maybe a manager and have people that work under them or whatever that looks like? Because the vast majority of kids that we're touching here are just going to be doing exactly that as opposed to being a launched into the major leagues or the NHL or whatever sport it is. Rhett Parker: And a of this started a long time ago, baseball in Japan. Some of the other sports have drawn from what they've done. Because they're so disciplined, so much fundamentals, less games when they're younger, and they've had a ton of success. But man, this has been great. Man, I love watching hockey, I just do, and it's like one of those things where you're I can't do that. But this is great. But give us your biggest takeaway. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. You Rhett Parker: ⁓ that you want parents, coaches, organizations, and you do a lot of really good things to help a lot of people. give yourself a plug in there because I think I love your philosophy on things and we need people to just be curious about surviving youth sports in a lot of different ways. ⁓ So give us your biggest thing you want people to take away. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Rhett Parker: from yourself in this episode and how you're helping people. Matt Dumouchelle: Yeah, for sure. So I first started out with with the coaches site as the coaches site dot com is where you'd find the features for hockey factories that we've written and we're going to expand that. We're going to try to take that on in different sports because a lot of the keys that we learn from hockey factories are not specific to hockey. I well, I'll get to what I where I think organizations can make the biggest gains the quickest in a minute. But that would be a source for for where those articles are. Rhett Parker: Hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: I have a website of myself, mattdoumichelle.com. It's got a lot of the media stuff that I've done, podcasts, articles, presentations, things like that are on there too. I've also got a youth sports systems health guide that's been built out for organizations. There's 50 questions in there. How does your organization measure up? Again, this isn't a beauty contest. This isn't to say, ⁓ we got 50 out of 50. This is to identify where we may have holes, right? Rhett Parker: I don't know. Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: maybe this isn't something we do well, let's explore that together. So you can take the guide, go through the survey, reach out to me afterwards, we meet, we'll chat things through here, this is what we found, okay, here's some opportunities, why don't we try this, why don't we look at this, right? One of the things I kind of start off with, and I mentioned a little bit earlier, is a premortem within your organization. What are the three things that are likely to go wrong this year that can sideline your year? is that registration is down, ⁓ sponsorship's down, parents are a problem, keeping coaches is a problem. What are your three big problems this year and what are you doing? Rhett Parker: Hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: to fix those because one thing we get into a situation when you're sitting on a board or in a coach's meeting or something like that we're all quick to come up with problems there's always problems to be fixed but what are we doing to fix them and we can't do eleven we can't fix twelve different things but i try to go through this with some of the organizations that i work with we'll kind of identify a problem in the most general terms and then we'll ask why Rhett Parker: Yeah. Matt Dumouchelle: times. We back it up five different times, So ⁓ parents out of control. ⁓ Why they out of control? Because of this. Why is that something we're experiencing? ⁓ And by going through that step, you'll get to a core problem that may not have anything to do with the parents being out of control themselves. It may be the coaches aren't very good communicators. ⁓ So where our fix is. That's what we can work on. So there's some of that on the website. Again, it's mattdoumichel.com. But the biggest thing organizing can do to help themselves. Number one is one of my favorite words to use when I I view these presentations and talk and simply alignment. We all have to be on the same page pushing in the same direction or nothing is going to get done. I've used comparisons of different things. My dad worked in the auto business ⁓ in Motors here in Windsor for 30 something years. ⁓ there's 2,000 people that touch a car that's being built before it goes from the start of the line to end of the line and out into somebody's driveway. No, not one person has built that car. I'm really good at installing seats or you you're really good with seat belts or whatever it is. we all have our role ⁓ that have to look at to make sure that this car at the end of the day works right. ⁓ If somebody along the line there that's ⁓ not at it, that's not doing their piece, that's whatever, the car is a lemon, we're putting people's lives at risk right? ⁓ We're trying to be Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: as dramatic in that sense, but if we're not all on the same page with our philosophies, with what our expectations are with our coaches, how we communicate with our families, if we're not all in sync with that, it doesn't matter if Connor Bedard ⁓ or Crosby ⁓ or Judge are in your program. It's not going to operate as efficiently as it can because at the end of the day, the line that I'll use over and over again is we're just trying to create ⁓ the youth sports experience Rhett Parker: Mm-hmm. Matt Dumouchelle: for every kid that's involved in your program. Not just the 5 % of the elite, it's every kid that puts his glove on the wrong hand, that runs the third base when they get a hit instead of first. That kid is learning something and is going to take something from your coaches and your organizations in that experience no matter what. He may never be a major leaguer, but the kid at nine years old who's a superstar may not be either. So we've got to be treating everybody the same way so that Rhett Parker: Yeah. Hmm? Matt Dumouchelle: end of the year when we say we're creating ⁓ an environment, a competitive environment or whatever our mantra is as an organization, that we're using that to lead our decisions as opposed to, we won the U18U, a summer side tournament, whatever we're coming up with, right? Rhett Parker: time. Yeah. No, I man, I'm taking a couple things away from this episode. Figure the plot out. Know your role in that plot and go execute like the boom, boom, boom. Well, man, I really appreciate you coming on. I think this is great. I definitely would love to support you in any way because I feel like, and again, our flossies aren't 100 % aligned, but Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Yep. Rhett Parker: They're close and I think stuff that I might believe differently than you. Parents, you can figure out what works for you and what doesn't. And that's why we're doing this and we're trying to help people. So man, I really appreciate you coming on, man. And ⁓ this is, I feel like every episode I'm on, I take something away from it. So really appreciate your time out. Matt Dumouchelle: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. That's great. Well, thanks again for having me. I'm glad you got something. if you're ever up in Canada again, you've got a few tacks along the map there. Windsor is the closest one to the states you can find. Detroit's right over there, right out the window. So, sway gone by. Rhett Parker: Yeah. I love it. Absolutely. No, this is perfect, man. And like I said, you, me, all of us, we'll just keep on surviving, brother. Matt Dumouchelle: Sounds good.